Ideogram Chat

16:32:28 RWelt enters this room
16:32:29 >[RWelt] Welcome to our chat. Please obey the net etiquette while chatting: try to be pleasant and polite.
16:34:39 RAW enters this room
16:35:22 [RWelt] Well hello there!
16:35:40 [RAW] test one two
16:36:07 [RWelt] receiving you five by five
16:36:41 [RAW] hello there ,I’ll be back in 15 minutes
16:37:03 [RWelt] no problem, still trying to finish dinner
16:49:16 acrillic enters this room
16:49:59 [RWelt] welcome, acrillic
16:50:01 [acrillic] Namaste
16:50:59 [RAW] hi there!
16:51:46 [RAW] refresh/30
16:51:52 [acrillic] waves hands frantic
16:52:27 [RWelt] maybe it’s still a little early, but I was expecting more of a turnout
16:53:06 [acrillic] umm, me too. thought the whole planet
16:54:10 [RAW] i just heard a few hours ago that bush and kerry are not only related to eachother (nineth cousins) bet they are also related to vlad dracul–the historical prototype for dracula
16:54:19 Matt enters this room
16:54:36 [RWelt] that’s awesome
16:54:39 [acrillic] Im reading about guts above, ive a steady hand and step. whoops, tripps and rolls off stool.
16:55:01 bandito enters this room
16:55:09 [RAW] the village voice this week has pitcture of george bush with fangs sucking the blood ofthe statue of liberty in the classic bela lugosi pose , this must mean something ?
16:55:17 [acrillic] Ooo the Impaler, they both look like they got pockers up the booty
16:55:57 [acrillic] Vampires suck.
16:55:58 [bandito] banditos in tha house
16:57:12 [acrillic] matt/bandito – hi y’all, welcome, greetings.
16:57:15 [RAW] this means bush and kerry are also related to the Usual Suspects—bonnie prince charly, the von hapsbergs, the jacobites, and the whole priory of scion genealogy, what next?
16:57:51 [Matt] Hi everyone
16:58:10 [bandito] hello…
16:58:11 [acrillic] Bloody hell, Bush and Kerry related by blood….clot!
16:58:34 [RWelt] do you think any notable figure can have figures like this in their ancestry, or is this really a special case?
16:59:20 [acrillic] I remeber a gameshow on T.V – family fortunes, where your family can compete wid others for Cash prizes, and cars and shit.
16:59:36 [RWelt] though i admit, either way, it’s fascinating
17:00:28 [bandito] sometimes I just think it’s old money types just staying within their own circle
17:00:59 [RAW] babys suck by the way, welcome bandito and matt and everyone
17:01:18 [RWelt] i think that’s probably a big part of it, bandito
17:02:19 [RAW] in an old european proverb: royals only mary royals, seems true this side of the atlantic too
17:02:49 [bandito] my baby (5.5 months) puts everything in his month – oral-survival right in front of me
17:03:21 [RAW] where are all of you on the earth?
17:03:40 [bandito] Golden, Colorado
17:04:10 [Matt] I’m in Munster, Indiana
17:04:12 [RWelt] Albuquerque, New Mexico… where Bugs Bunny makes all his wrong turns
17:04:23 [RAW] ive been there to CO, i lectured at an engineering college there once
17:04:30 [bandito] LOL
17:04:48 [bandito] No kidding! Colorado School of Mines???
17:04:51 [RAW] never been to either of those places …sorry
17:04:59 [acrillic] Brooklyn, NY
17:05:10 [RAW] YES that was it !
17:05:32 [RAW] i was born in brooklyn and proud of it!
17:05:45 [RWelt] you haven’t really missed much by not having been here
17:06:01 [bandito] I’m stunned! I have a BS and MS from Mines. My wife has a BS. We just had our 10 year reunion of sorts.
17:06:14 [bandito] small world
17:06:31 [Matt] Munster is close to Crown Point…
17:06:34 [acrillic] Yeah, i was born in Wordsley
17:07:12 [RWelt] was in brooklyn for a family wedding a few months back
17:07:15 [acrillic] Wordsly, Mid Westlands, UK
17:07:44 [RAW] can any of you guess why Simon Moon’s first words in Illumintus! are : crown point?
17:08:27 [RWelt] it has something to do with kether, right?
17:08:58 [Matt] Dillinger and the jail?
17:09:23 [acrillic] Kings. Sepheroph. wearing the crown. Kether. Top Hat
17:09:36 [bandito] Moon’s tantric practices?
17:09:47 [RWelt] all of the above?
17:09:50 [RAW] yeah kether means crown and is symbolized geometricly by a point, crown point was also the escape proof jail that dillinger blashemously escaped from in defiance to the laws of physics and the United States.
17:10:37 [acrillic] Right on Mat.
17:10:42 [RAW] yea verily
17:10:45 [RWelt] man, i’m so far behind in the illuminatus course
17:11:09 [bandito] me too, about two chapters back..
17:11:13 [RAW] since this is the end of the course are there any questions you want to ask?
17:12:02 [bandito] how do you see ideograms in relation to internet?
17:12:08 [RWelt] i still have troubles expressing what ideogrammic method “means” in words… is there a short simple way you can sum it up?
17:12:22 [bandito] montage? feedback? organism-as-whole?
17:12:34 [RWelt] i have lots of people who give me a “what the fuck” look when i say i’m taking a course on id. method
17:13:03 [bandito] I meant that as a follow up to my question, not as a reply to RWelt’s question…
17:13:21 [acrillic] what did you eat for breakfast?
17:13:31 [RWelt] lol, i assumed that… both of us hurriedly typing away…
17:13:39 [Matt] Me too, RWelt
17:13:49 [RAW] the ideograms define by giving concrete particulars , where as western philosophy defines by abstractions
17:15:02 [RAW] for example energy is the capacity to do work (western) or as against energy equals man with shovel , horse pulling cart, electric generator, waterfall, atomic bomb, etc.
17:15:11 [RAW] is that clear?
17:15:43 [acrillic] Concrete like “Root” similarity with natural phenomena
17:15:49 [RWelt] makes sense to me, looks clear enough to satisfy my friends
17:15:49 [RAW] second ex: western defines individualism as the doctrine that blah blah blah
17:17:04 [RAW] as pound defines individualism as odyseus , sigasmundo malatesta, confucius, thomas jefferson, etc.
17:17:04 [bandito] makes sense. Seems like it would go a long way in clearing lines of communication. less noise.
17:17:48 [RAW] yeah
17:18:14 [RAW] as far as internet see all of the above
17:19:14 [RAW] concrete as specific
17:19:25 [bandito] internet certainly seems like montage
17:19:45 [RAW] as william blake said : he who would do good to other must do so in concrete particulars
17:19:52 [acrillic] how does the Ideo meth in China, differ from our western “Interpretation” of the methd – of chi/ written character?
17:19:59 [RWelt] internet seems like all bandito said earlier… montage, feedback, organism-as-whole…
17:20:15 [RAW] general good is a plague of the hipocrite , scoundrel and flatterer- Blake
17:20:28 [RAW] as a poet Blake thought in ideograms
17:21:10 [RWelt] general good meaning a blanket goodness… to the whole but not necessarily to the individual?
17:21:13 [acrillic] and all the hills echoed>>>>>>>
17:21:39 [RAW] acrilic – i dont get the question, can you redefine?
17:21:56 [bandito] I remember introducing my wife to internet several years ago. She typed in the same phrase in various search engines and got different answers from each one which she found frustrating. Now we seem to have interalized the inheirent “choas” of internet
17:22:04 [RAW] general good meaning what george carlin calls bullshit!
17:22:45 [RAW] bandito – yes that what i like about internet
17:22:47 [RWelt] i love the inherent chaos of internet!
17:23:13 [RAW] i once that certitude who inly look in one encyclopedia, with internt we have various encyclopedias
17:23:22 [acrillic] How do you think the Ideo method, as practised in China “Assimilates” with our English interpretation, how can we improve the communication medium? erm…. acrillc /..drowns in his drink
17:25:12 [RWelt] i think acrillic is after… how does “our” version of id. method differ from how those in China use/see it?
17:25:33 [RWelt] or something akin to that
17:25:37 [RAW] still not sure i understand but i dont expect to become a frenchman by studying french lit or a chinese by studying ideograms yet i think studying french and chinese makes more than an ordinary american, which is worth striving for
17:25:49 [acrillic] Thanks Rwelt.
17:26:43 [Matt] Any suggestions for further study?
17:26:53 [RWelt] more than an ordinary anything is worth striving for, i think
17:27:02 bogusmagus enters this room
17:27:09 [bandito] I would guess that language has an influence on culture and that a study of Chinese culture shed some light on your question…
17:27:17 [acrillic] well Bob your about the most Chinese, irishman i can think of, can i retract the question? he he Oops
17:27:34 [RAW] matt- science and sanity by korzybski
17:28:39 [acrillic] Greetings Bogus
17:28:48 [bandito] any Korzybski popularizations you recommend before plunging into the masterwork?
17:28:50 [RAW] a friend years ago said everytime I took a psychedlelic that i looked chinese
17:28:56 [Matt] Thanks!
17:29:02 [RAW] not sure what that means
17:29:20 [RWelt] did this course give you any new perspectives or ideas that you’ll include in Tale of the Tribe?
17:29:54 [bogusmagus] Hi – just back-tracking and lurking a while
17:30:00 [RAW] welt – it certainly gave me a lot of new ideas and perspectives..yes!
17:30:16 [RWelt] wonderful
17:31:30 [RAW] you could say the use of concrete particulars vs vague generalizations
17:31:38 [RWelt] in regards to all the classes, not just this one, how much do they change from what you originally envisioned?
17:31:57 [RWelt] do they flow pretty much as you expected? or are you constantly altering?
17:32:26 [RAW] they evolved in ways I could not expect or predict. thats why enjoyed them so much and hope to teach more online
17:33:10 [RAW] like everything else in the universe they continually surprise me ( well everything except G.Bush)
17:34:00 [RWelt] I don’t know… Bush continually surprises me, but never in a good way
17:34:08 [bogusmagus] I have greatly enjoyed this particular course because so much was unfamiliar (more surprise, more information?)
17:34:26 [bandito] bogus – any new mcluhan-ideogram insights…
17:34:59 [bogusmagus] that’ll be tomorrow!
17:35:22 [RAW] bandito – there several good ones, but i dont know what is still in print….explorations in awareness by samuel bois, language in thought and action by sam hayakawa
17:35:22 [bogusmagus] Sorry people – got a tooth abcess, brain out of gear
17:35:38 [RAW] and quantumn psychology by me , still in print
17:35:52 [bandito] aha!
17:36:41 [bandito] wish we could all get together and play the world game online.
17:36:50 [RAW] ive had an abcess, god pity you sir!
17:37:06 [bogusmagus] Thanks, Bob
17:37:10 [RWelt] me too! i looked at the world game a few months ago, and was filled with a desire to play
17:37:45 [bogusmagus] Hey, how much does it cost, and how do we set up a team?
17:38:24 [bandito] $3500 for them to come to you. Didn’t see an online option.
17:39:07 [bandito] Bois’ book out of print, hayakawa available at
17:39:48 [RAW] in that case i recommend hayakawa
17:40:10 [acrillic] Hayakawa has a great essay in Ecetera ecetera compendium.
17:40:32 [RAW] while youre at it check and see if the ‘power of words’ by stewart chase is till in print
17:41:24 [bandito] Power of words out of print. I found Bois at
17:42:15 [bandito] Power of words @ as well….
17:42:20 [RAW] look for operational philosophy by anatole rapoport
17:42:59 [RAW] i also recommend the open society and its enemies by Karl Popper
17:43:14 [RAW] and selected prose by Ezra Pound
17:44:05 [RWelt] I’ve already got a list of over 60 books to read….looks like it might be growing
17:44:23 [bandito] Whee! this is fun! Operational philosophy out of print, but amazon has 10 used copies. Bless internet.
17:44:24 [bogusmagus] I just got hold of a ‘popular’ book – Drive Yourself Sane – anyone know it?
17:45:02 [RWelt] bogus- i’ve heard the name, but that’s about all i know of it
17:45:21 [RAW] Ive read it…its ok, the guy who wrote it supports G.Bush, so be warned!
17:46:10 [RAW] He should try driving himself sane.
17:46:29 [bogusmagus] OK – but he’s quoting you as a ref on this website
17:47:08 [bandito] lol!
17:47:10 [RAW] he has a right to do that if he wants to
17:47:19 [acrillic] I picked up the Trial of Ezra Pound. Bob, do you find Julian Cornell’s book a fair, balanced work? book?
17:48:05 [RAW] acrili – almost, not entirely….balanced but far from complete
17:49:07 [bandito] I must say that reading Pound has finally put some pleasure into poetry (for me)
17:49:38 [RAW] lol
17:49:47 [acrillic] my heart raced as i read the transcripts/broadcasts, wow – MC Pound really got the party jumpin and hearts pumpin.
17:49:53 dalryada enters this room
17:50:04 [RWelt] i’ve really enjoyed Pound also…
17:50:15 [bogusmagus] Me too
17:50:31 [RWelt] most poetry i’ve read has either been poorly written, or has a message no more complex than “flower pretty”
17:50:55 [bogusmagus] It’s been hard when friends say “why are you reading a Fascist and an anti-Semite?”
17:51:01 [acrillic] Pound is a currency ?
17:51:25 [RAW] Non Illuminati carborundum
17:52:05 [bandito] hello dalryada
17:52:19 [dalryada] oh hi, i’m lurking. i know i’m really late. sorry.
17:52:25 [bogusmagus] Even when I say “he was doing broadcasts against American involvement in the war” (which those same friends should approve, maybe?)
17:52:34 [RAW] challenge the is of identity and read korzybski for christ sake!
17:52:37 [bogusmagus] Hi Dal
17:52:51 [dalryada] hi bogus
17:53:15 [RAW] signing off soon
17:53:35 [RWelt] ok, i haven’t been saying it so far, but hi to everyone who’s joined in, glad you’re here
17:54:00 [RWelt] korzybski is high on my list of books to read next (science & sanity)
17:54:01 [RAW] sorry we missed you Dalryada
17:54:03 [acrillic] A pound of currency maybe a pound of Ezra Pound’s flesh.
17:54:21 [dalryada] me too….it rained in arizona and everything went all to HELL!
17:54:48 [bandito] kinda like snow in Texas?
17:54:58 [dalryada] exactly
17:55:19 [RWelt] same way here in new mex… wonder if you got the storm that passed thru last night? not sure which way that was headed
17:55:29 [RAW] thank you all for the inspiration you have provided and the ideas you have jostled.
17:55:34 [Matt] Even though I just lurked, I found the forums very helpful. Thanks to everyone who posted. Your questions and answers helped clear up lots of things for me.
17:55:53 [RAW] See you in the Academy!
17:56:06 [bogusmagus] Be Seeing You!
17:56:09 [bandito] mutual inspiration all around
17:56:13 [dalryada] hi and bye!
17:56:16 [bandito] see you on campus
17:56:22 [RWelt] thank you Bob for giving us this wonderful opportunity
17:57:16 [acrillic] greetings
17:58:02 [RWelt] and thank all the rest of you too, for making this a pleasant experience of exploration
17:58:33 RAW exits from this room
17:59:47 [RWelt] sorry you missed most of it, dalryada
18:00:13 [bogusmagus] I’ve had a great time, but I found this the hardest course – perhaps the most rewarding – I am not sure yet…
18:00:24 [dalryada] yeah, me too. i won’t ask what you guys talked about. i’ll hopefully wait till it’s posted in the forums..
18:00:50 [RWelt] if anyone needs it, i’ve got the whole chat in a Word document
18:00:54 [bogusmagus] more good book titles!
18:01:03 [RWelt] including this stuff… hehehe
18:01:09 [dalryada] oh yeah! oh no.
18:01:16 [dalryada] including this stuff?
18:01:52 [bandito] I love that guy!
18:01:53 [RWelt] yeah, i’m getting everything until i go, which will probably be soon
18:02:06 [RWelt] i know how you feel, bandito
18:02:19 [dalryada] i’d love a copy.
18:02:36 [bogusmagus] I thought I came in after a few minutes – did you start earleir?
18:02:49 [dalryada] so….bogus, you mentioned this was the hardest course for you….me too. Others as well?
18:02:52 [RWelt] anyone who wants a copy, email me at
18:02:53 [bogusmagus] I’d like a copy of the earlier stuff, too
18:03:01 [RWelt] let me know if you want a format other than .doc
18:04:49 [bogusmagus] For future reference, how did you save it?
18:04:54 [RWelt] yeah, looks like there’s a good bit before you showed up, bogus
18:05:21 [RWelt] i’ve just been copying & pasting into an open Word document
18:05:45 [bogusmagus] OK
18:06:23 [acrillic] great fun ppl, thanx.
18:06:43 [bogusmagus] Thanx for the pix
18:06:51 [RWelt] yes, again thank all you guys
18:07:23 [acrillic] thanks for the trix
18:07:56 [RWelt] i’ll probably be back online in a few hours… will send out the log to anyone who’s requested it by then
18:08:10 [RWelt] if you request later, you’ll get it within a day at most
18:08:26 [RWelt] bye!

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